What happened to leader inheritance?

[Bittycat]

So, long ago the Erins tried to feed us the idea that "long ago" the Deputy was a direct descendant of the Leader. Alright, seems fair enough; this is how many young/primitive societies work, plus it ensures the Clan isn't without a leader. The tradition was dropped in favor of the modern version.

Except, I'm pretty sure that didn't happen.

Windstar's mate Gorsefur was the deputy, not Dust Muzzle or Moth Flight or any of her offspring. Thunderstar's deputy was his "brother" Lightningtail, and later Owleyes, neither of which were his offspring. Shadowstar, Skystar and Riverstar were never described as having deputies; but Riverstar never had kits, or Shadowstar, and Skystar's were far too young at that point.

Further evidence;
Oakstar, two generations before Bluestar*, never mentions or considers the idea of needing a litter to continue his lineage. Firestar is presumably never taught about this Clan history, as noone mentions it, nor does he.

So that begs the question: What the heck, Erins?! Make up your mind! Were the Clans a dynasty, or not? Hm?






*The Clans have been here for 50 years as of ITW. Average leader ages tend to be around ~9-10 years, from the Wiki. This means there should be around 5 leaders living full-term, with a few Nightstars squeezing in between. So two generations back means the Clans have only been around for 3 full leaders; surely memory would have sufficed from then?

Not sure what the purpose of the thread is. Reply with your own thoughts on this fallacy, if you like! Mostly I just wanted to rant about the forgotten potential. DOTC is soooo good, but it would've been interesting to see how such a dynasty tradition was started when 2/5 leaders didn't have children to speak of and 1 leader's were still tots. But nah. Why do that?

[turtletail]

holy glob, a Warriors dynasty? O: that sounds so coooool *^* might have to use something like this for future stories, if that's okay with ya.

I remembered Crookedstar made Oakheart his deputy and they were brothers... until Oakheart bit the dust, then he chose Leopardfoot... hmmm. honestly, i really like the idea of having a litter continue your lineage (so u have two kits. one's a deputy the other could be the medicine cat... i dunno, two of the highly respected position in the clan seems good to me, at least i'd give my children those - if they wanted).

i haven't read DoTC, but yea, i heard there was much potential there, as with everything Warriors. don't have much to say, expect i really like this idea ! \o

[Gingercloud]

So, long ago the Erins tried to feed us the idea that "long ago" the Deputy was a direct descendant of the Leader. Alright, seems fair enough; this is how many young/primitive societies work, plus it ensures the Clan isn't without a leader. The tradition was dropped in favor of the modern version.

Except, I'm pretty sure that didn't happen.

That's because you're right friend, like many of the Erin's "ideas" this is something that we've been informed about, yet theirs minimal evidence for it in Canon.

In fact, I did some digging and the only evidence I could find of this being a "thing" is in one of the Field Guides- Code of the Clans. I personally always thought that the Field Guides were sub-Canon at best given that they didn't infrequently contract what had been established in previous books, regularly contracted one another, and books published since have reconned them to a truly mind-blowing degree. (This especially effects CotC since it also features "The Dawn of the Clans" in it's opening pages.)  So all of that isn't to this "ideas" benefit, but I'll go over what CotC said about it anyway.

First off, you're wrong about the "Deputy being a direct descendant of the Leader". The short story this "idea" plays a part in never actually says that. The story is about a young and often reckless SkyClan Warrior (Mothpelt), suddenly being called upon to succeed his father (Beechstar) after a battle with RiverClan lead to his father being mortally wounded and dying a slow death. Beechstar in his dying breaths names Mothpelt his successor and commands him to attack RiverClan to take vengeance. 

I really have to stop and note here that Mothpelt wasn't his fathers Deputy, a Molly by the name of Maplewhisker was! Yes really, this apparently implies that the Deputy position "originally" wasn't intended to be a stepping stone to leadership, but rather just a permanent "Second-in-Command" post.

Anyway, Beechstar finally kicks the bucket and Mothpelt immediately decides to attack RiverClan... despite the river being grossly flooded (Along with a good deal of the territory). A senior Warrior by the name of Robinwing (Yes, another one) desperately tries to talk some sense into Mothpelt, but the tom decides to stupidly plunge into the river anyway, taking half of the (Also very stupid) Clan with him. So Robinwing freaks out and tries to protect his apprentice Rubblepaw, and then Maplewhisker finally comes to her senses and takes charge of the situation, leading the cats that remain on-shore in a rescue operation. Robinwing and Rubblepaw help save a couple of warriors, and ultimately by some miracle everyone gets out of the river okay.

Even Mothpelt, but by this point in time Robinwing has had enough of his foolishness so he practically begs Maplewhisker to become leader in his place, even promising to personally support her. Maplewhisker is unsure, but Robinwing gives her a pep-talk about how everyone respected her as Deputy and how they'll in turn respect her as Leader even if her leadership isn't "traditional". Then several other SkyClan cats come forward and throw support her way and she agrees to become Leader, but only if Mothpelt hands over leadership to her willingly. Well the short story ends on this note, but apparently Mothpelt (Presumably humbled by his near death experience) did in fact hand over leadership to Maplewhisker, who went to the Moonstone and became Maplestar all official-like. This incident also resulted in the eighth law of the Warrior Code- A Deputy will become Clan Leader when the previous Leader dies or retires. 

So yeah, that's it. That's the "ideas" single Canonical use. I also should note that the other short stories that involve the codes that specify Deputyship contract the Mothpelt-Beechstar story. This is especially bad considering the Deputy codes are listed literally right after one another, so that means that Codes Seven and Nine's short stories happen right before and right after that one. That's just hilariously poor writing. But to sum up what the other short stories say about the line of succession- Basically no note is made about the supposed "tradition" of the Leader's kit succeeding them and the Deputy being a permanent second in command.

Code Seven's short story is about a young and inexperienced tom named Acorntail being named Deputy after WindClan's previous Deputy Pebblefur dies unexpectedly. Acorntail basically has the worst first day ever, which ultimately comes to a head after he nearly causes a border dispute between ThunderClan and WindClan over an old rabbit carcass. After this incident gets taken of by a more experienced Clanmate and her apprentice, Acorntail rushes back to camp and begs his Leader (Featherstar) to remove him from the Deputy position. Featherstar refuses, but apologizes to Acorntail for not giving him an apprentice before making him her Deputy. Acorntail thinks this is a great idea and tells Featherstar he'll remain her Deputy if she gives him a specific kit from the Nursery when said kit reaches six moons of age. 

And that's about it, this incident is what lead to the seventh code coming into being- A cat cannot be made Deputy without having mentored at least one apprentice. It's never outright said, but this short story implies that Featherstar made Acorntail her Deputy because he was an apprentice of Pebblefur. That's it, it's never mentioned or otherwise noted that Acorntail is Featherstar's son (Nor does Acorntail ever call her his mother), and the same goes for Pebblefur. The story gives no reason to suspect a relationship between these two characters or even amounst one another.

Code Nine's short story is about a power vacuum that occurred in ShadowClan after both the Leader (Snowstar) and the Deputy (Brightwhisker) die off right after one another. The Medicine cat (Redscar) is at a lose at how to dead with this devastating situation, particularly when two different cats step up and start vying for the leadership role, and both of these cats happen to have attracted half of the Clan's support each. So ShadowClan is divided in two over weather the aggressive but charismatic Jumpfoot should become leader, or the gentle but still fierce Mossfire should. Ultimately a fight between these two cats breaks out and well... they both die. This freaks the Clan out even more and Redscar proves to be further useless, so much so that yet another cat has to take charge of the situation. This cat is Flowerstem, the late Mossfire's sister. So Flowerstem proves to be a natural leader, so much so in fact, that Snowstar appears in Redscar's dreams and tells him to declare her Clan Leader. Redscar apparently lacks so much confidence in his own words that he fakes a sign from StarClan and uses this "omen" to make Flowerstem leader.

Apparently it worked, because Flowerstem did in fact go to the Moonstone and become Flowerstar. This mess ended up hailing in Code Nine- After the death or retirement of the previous Deputy, the new Deputy must be chosen before moonhigh.  Again, none of the characters that vy for leadership are noted to be related to those who had it previously, and who becomes leader in the end is related to one those who tried to take it for herself by force, but that's literally the only relation. Redscar doesn't choose Flowerstem because she was the late Snowstar's or Brightwhisker's daughter, he choose her because she demonstrated the right kind of personality for leadership. So therefore Mossfire also wanted to become leader because she thought she was better suited for it, moreso then Jumpfoot was anyway. Neither cat brings up their relations to try to "justify" why they should be leader, they just think their personally well-suited to the position. 

This whole "The leaders kit becomes the next leader" thing is well... a non thing! It only appears in one short story in a book that's Canonicity can be argued against, the other short stories dealing with the exact same problem (A succession crisis) in the exact same book don't bring this "tradition" up at all when if it really was an expected thing they really should've done so... I'm pretty much convinced that Vicky just made up this "tradition" for the Mothpelt-Beechstar short story because she wanted to make a moral about the perils of having a monarchy in absolute power or whatever.  

Frankly judging by what little Canonical evidence their is for this thing, we can only really be sure that this was a "SkyClan" thing when it was "in-use". And considering the truly massive EGO Skystar has, him putting such a terrible "tradition" in place in his Clan fits amusingly well with his character. 

So the Clan's were at no point a dynasty, Vicky just pulled this stupid idea right out of her you-know-where because it suited that specific short stories purpose. Something she's certainly not above doing because she's done it before. 


(I also hate Dawn of the Clans with a fiery passion because of how soap operaish it is. Yes, lets spend six whole books on the personal relations and relationships of a boatload of jerks! Surely that's more interesting and exciting then laying out piece by piece how the Clans actually came into being! For an arc that branded itself as the "origin story" it was a total let-down and a plain disappointment to me because it never really told us how the Clans developed their unique culture.)



 

[Honeystorm]

I think that it would have been interesting had there been an actual shift from "the deputy is related to the leader" to "the deputy isn't always related to the leader." I haven't read most of the new books so I'm a bit lost, but if this was an actual thing, then I would have written it so that originally, the deputy was always related to the leader, whether the leader's mate, kits, or other family. Later, the leader didn't always have an eligible family member to become deputy, and so they chose a non-family member to become the deputy. This became more and more common until there were an equal amount of related leaders and deputies and non-related leaders and deputies. Too bad Erin Hunter couldn't have written it like this if they made up a short story about it. Too much missed oppurtunity!

[Stormheart]

I'm not going to dispute the idea that dynasties never occurred - in fact, I think they'd have been actively discouraged from the very start. If a Clan founder was going to hold their old friends and family as closer advisers than the general Clan, then what reason would those Clan members even have to trust them and remain in such a new/odd (at the time) living arrangement?

In fact, I always thought the fact that Firestar allowed his daughter to become medicine cat was rather out of line. Especially considering Cinderpelt was his former apprentice, and he'd made his best friend deputy and then later another former apprentice who was also considered his daughter's mate. And THEN Leafpool took Jayfeather, ostensibly her nephew, as HER apprentice. Like, that's a lot of nepotism, my dude, maybe you should tone it down a little. I mean, I know it was all for ~plot reasons~ but boy, you'd think some ThunderClan cats would be getting the idea that Firestar was trying to start a dynasty of his own and they would never get a shot at leadership if they weren't related to him. Actually, Firestar allowing all of this to go on could speak to the fact that he WAS in fact told this little myth, and took it as fact?

There's also the problem that, eventually, everyone in a Clan is interrelated, even more so if you take mentorship to be a kind of guardianship or surrogate parent relationship.

On a side note, I really disagree with the wiki's assertion of 9-10 years per leader. Even if we assume their lives are artificially extended via the nine lives system, that's still a LONG time for a feral cat to live. Especially since leaders are expected, by dint of their magical powers of surviving, to be at the head of battles and other dangers. I would hazard (via some really rough math) that Firestar was at most 6 or 7 when he died. Now, he assumed power rather young, but I think that's offset by how many freaking risks the guy took. Additionally, I think the first few reigns after the Clan formed would be rather short-lived, because everyone is still working out how the Clan functions and power is transferred and who, in fact, is best suited for leadership. So I can easily see a lot of the situations Gingercloud mentioned from CotC playing out in the early years, as well as cats stepping down because they realize they don't want/aren't suited for leadership. Perhaps even because they were overwhelmed by all the responsibilities, and this is how the concept of deputyship arose, to take burdens off the leader?

Come argue with me, because I totally have never read Dawn of the Clans!

[dreamweaver]

The Wiki claims that Firestar was approximately 96 moons (8 years) at death which I see as very plausible. I have a few feelings on longevity for clan cats but I intend to make a separate thread on that.

As for the other leaders living that long, I do agree in the assertion that it is improbable, mostly because there are more than five leaders mentioned per clan between initial leaders and the ones we encounter in the books. To be fair due to retconning and changing of cannon, there isn't really a specific consistent timeline. However considering the fact that often deputies pass on, I can see that some leaders (particularly during times of stress and war) would be likely to lose lives more quickly even than Firestar, who seems to consistently lose lives every few books. Even though we don't very often see how other leaders fare in the life losing category Im sure it is different depending on the clan and the situation. Maybe some more cautious leaders like Mistystar (although she is such an old fart and probably should have just retired anyway, like seriously she's a few years older than Firestar was) would manage to live longer lives due to their increased longevity but that also depends how you see the nine lives and old age.

Anyway as for what this has to do with inheritance and dynasties, I think one of the big issues in canon was when there was a point where leaders did put their kits as deputies. Mistystar was very hesitant to put her son Reedwhisker as her deputy, despite him being a capable and respected warrior because of this very reason. But it seems a common occurrence to make family members (if not kits) deputies, which technically can still be considered a dynasty since they are from the same family. Firestar just goes the whole way and makes himself a dynasty because I believe after Jayfeather and Leafpool, Alderheart (grandkit I believe) gets the medicine cat position as well. What the heck? So in a way perhaps what Vicky is doing is justifying the current lineup of Thunderclan high ranks by claiming that that was how it was all along!

As for whether a dynasty would be plausible... Well it could, if built differently. For example the leaders will always be from one specific line, but deputies and advisors would always have to be not related (i.e. not closer than second or third cousins) to become deputy or medicine cat. Or you could have three different dynasties all holding three specific offices of power, and the only way to become powerful is to mate with one of those families and your kit would inherit. I imagine this would lead to interesting relationship dynamics within the clan. However this would likely be a deviation from the typical clan system, and not canon at all.

Just my thoughts on the issue